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Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) has transformed how consumers approach purchasing, yet adoption in the US still trails markets like Australia and Europe. In this episode, we sit down with Joe Heck, US CEO of Zip, who brings somewhat of a contrarian perspective to the industry. Joe argues that BNPL isn’t just another credit product, it’s a financial tool designed for what he calls “underestimated Americans,” the paycheck-to-paycheck consumers often underserved by traditional banks.
With Zip achieving a 98% payback rate and growing over 40% year-over-year, Joe shares insights on why the credit system is too judgmental, how BNPL provides working capital flexibility, and his vision for autonomous finance powered by AI. Whether you’re curious about the future of payments or want to understand how fintech is serving overlooked consumer segments, this conversation offers fresh insights into one of the fastest-growing areas of financial services.
In this podcast you will learn:
- What attracted Joe to take the CEO role at Zip.
- Why BNPL has not taken off as fast in the U.S. as it has in Australia and Europe.
- How Zip’s BNPL product works.
- What Zip’s customers are spending their money on.
- What kind of checks they do for new customers.
- Joe’s view on reporting BNPL transactions to credit bureaus.
- What is driving the growth at Zip over the last year.
- How Joe responds to media criticisms of BNPL and mounting consumer debt.
- How they help their customers smooth out their payments.
- How they partner with Stripe and what it means for Zip’s growth.
- Where Zip is looking to expand.
- How Joe sees the the BNPL sector evolving and the role of AI.
Read a transcription of our conversation below.
FINTECH ONE-ON-ONE PODCAST NO. 548 – JOE HECK
Joe Heck: Unlike a credit card, you know, this doesn’t roll in perpetuity. The APR doesn’t continue to compound on the consumer. So to me, where I think consumers sometimes get themselves in trouble is they trust the financial institutions assessment of affordability and they spend to their limits. They get upside down and then it rolls and they pay minimum payments for, you know, 70 years on something. But where our product, you know, we know in a couple of weeks, if the consumer is in good shape or not, and if they’re not in good shape, their ability to borrow from us is frozen and we have a $7 late fee. So, you know, they’re not going to get buried in fees and APR revolving. So to me, this idea that we’re propagating debt, I think just the inherent structure of the product doesn’t really allow for that. And the cycle time on it spins so fast. As I mentioned before, it’s a six week product.
Peter Renton: This is the Fintech One-on-One Podcast, the show for fintech enthusiasts looking to better understand the leaders shaping fintech and banking today. My name is Peter Renton and since 2013, I’ve been conducting in-depth interviews with fintech founders and banking executives. Today on the show, we’re diving deep into the world of Buy Now, Pay Later with Joe Heck, who is the CEO of Zip’s US operations. In this conversation, we explore why BNPL adoption in the US still lags behind markets like Australia and Europe. Joe also shares his contrarian view that BNPL isn’t just another credit product. He also talks about what he calls underestimated Americans, the paycheck to paycheck consumers who are often underserved by traditional financial products. You’ll hear about their 98 % payback rate, their partnership with Stripe and why Joe believes the credit reporting system is often too judgmental with incomplete consumer information. He also shares where the industry is heading with AI and autonomous finance capabilities. Now let’s get on with the show.
Welcome to the podcast, Joe.
JH: Thanks Peter, excited to be with you.
PR: So you’ve been around fintech for a little while now. I’d love to kind of just touch on some of the highlights of your career to date before Zip.
JH: Sure, yeah, happy to. I would say early days, I cut my teeth with a company called TruStage, large insurance company that worked primarily with credit unions across the country, learned a ton about lending, learned a ton about community-based partnerships, and ultimately was able to traverse over to a real fintech in happy money, which I think was doing some really innovative things around behavioral science and lending, helping consumers get out of credit card debt, but also looking for like that behavioral analysis, which I thought was just really fascinating and really aligned with early credit union days. Later, we were able to, I was able to jump over to Zip, which was just about a year ago. So couldn’t be happier. I think the thing we focused on here at Zip is helping what we consider underestimated Americans get access to credit kind of when and where they need it, regardless of where they’re at in their financial journey. And the reason I bring that up is because there’s a common thread here. TruStage, I think, did a wonderful job of partnering with credit unions on Middle America. Happy Money was really trying to find consumers that were stressed and needed to find faster paths to get out of debt. And then ultimately, Coming to Zip was able to kind of use all that experience to help guide the ship here at Zip and really be a BNPL that’s focused on that underestimated American.
PR: Okay, so I want to kind of dig into a little bit about what attracted you specifically to Zip. You obviously, Happy Money, it’s a successful fintech lender. just had their CEO on the podcast just a few weeks ago. I’d love to know what you specifically wanted to achieve by moving to Zip.
JH: Yeah, yeah, it’s a great question. And I would say I listened to the podcast with Matt and really excited to see where the Happy Money crew is at. And I was appreciative of his compliments of the culture there. That was what made it really, really difficult to ever want to leave. I would say I’m much like where I think the industry was a couple of years ago, which is BNPL largely, I think, is misunderstood. When I first kind of heard about the product, I looked at as an alternative to payday lending, kind of had a negative connotation about the product. Luckily, I had a good person in my network that was like, hang on, slow down, listen, learn a little bit about how this product actually works with the consumer. And the more I learned, the more I really wanted to be a part of what I believe is the change BNPL is making across the credit spectrum. I think about the early days of fintech what I would say 1.0 is taking offline products and putting them online. Really, the products aren’t all that different. It’s the same. I look at BNPL as a real reconstruction of a credit product that didn’t exist before the internet days. Certainly, embedded has helped. But where I see the product is like we’re not overly reliant on FICO scores. We’re really looking at true payback behavior and helping people with small dollars when and where they need it. And that’s nothing like payday lending. think the ability to do this at scale and with a sense of like fairness is really exciting to be a part of.
PR: Right. And so let’s talk about BNPL for a second globally. obviously with some emphasis on this country, you know, we have, I read that we have about 5 % of e-commerce transactions in the US are now BNPL, which certainly that’s not an insignificant number. But when compared to Australia and Europe, it’s low. Australia, I mean, think Zip originated in Australia, if I’m not mistaken, right? And obviously Australia’s had Afterpay and several others that have really, you know, been trailblazers in this space. What, maybe you could talk about the BNPL maybe globally and then why the US market still hasn’t caught quite the adoption that we’ve seen in Australia and Europe.
JH: Yeah, look, I’ll maybe reverse the order here and start with America. And this goes back to my happy money days. think when you really look at the US economy, like we’re built on credit, know, Americans love credit. We use it. And I think like there’s point systems and reward systems that encourage usage. But like ultimately everybody’s got a credit card and you know, that 30 day float is a really great financial tool to be used appropriately. Obviously there’s other ways to use credit, but I think like you start to look more globally, credit’s not the core to many other economies. And I would say we have a higher adoption curve of credit cards than say Australia. I want to say the average age of an Australian with a credit card is in like the mid to late 40s. That as you well know, that is not the average age here in the US. Like we get credit cards the second we get into college or elsewhere. I think where I look at the answer to your question is I think we’re early days of the adoption rate of BNPL. I think you’re seeing consumer adoption spike around ease of usage, simplicity, ease of understanding. Those are not words that are synonymous with our traditional credit forms. Even something as simple as like an APR for people like you and I or managing to a 30 day float. Like those are not, those are, those are not like easy concepts for people that don’t live and breathe financial services. And I think what you see with BNPL is a simplified fee structure that can’t get somebody overwhelmed and in debt for an extended period of time. And it certainly doesn’t land punitively. I, to answer your question probably more directly, I just think we’re in the early days and I think people are starting to understand. And when you look at where consumer adoption was on Black Friday, Cyber Monday, when you look at it, whereas on Amazon Prime days, like you were seeing a push and where I think ultimately we’ll end up is similar. We’re not going to, we’re not going to get rid of credit cards. There’s some great benefits of credit cards. But what I do think we’ll end up with is in that 15 to 18 % adoption rate that you’re seeing in some of the other countries just for this reason that it’s simple and it’s easy to understand and use.
PR: Right, right, that makes sense. Okay, so then let’s talk about Zip. Maybe you can explain how your BNPL products work and what they’re like.
JH: Yeah, yeah. So I think in general, our BNPL product works a lot like others. You know, we partner with merchants and we drive real incrementality with our merchant partners. So it’s a simple integration process that gives consumers alternative options at checkout. One of our largest customers, I think is a great proof point for this. We, I think 18 % of our customers said they would have had to abandon their cart because either they didn’t have a credit card available to them at the time or they didn’t have a limit available to them at the time. And they used a BNPL product to get what they needed in that moment in time. What makes Zip different is large percentage of what we’re financing is non-discretionary spending. So if you think about the credit privilege, like probably you and I, we have availability to credit cards with 30 day floats. This BNPL provides working capital for that underestimated American when they need it. And they may be in between paychecks. And I think that’s really the strength of our product different than others. So where everyone’s the same is like a pay in four product means you put 25 % down at the time of transaction, and then you pay three installments over the next six weeks. So over the course of six weeks, you pay back the full loan, doesn’t revolve, it doesn’t have an APR that can potentially hold you up if you don’t pay your minimums. It’s a flat installment fee structure. And I think that is the simplicity I was mentioning before. Where we focus is on that paycheck to paycheck consumer that really, I think, is misunderstood by the traditional financial system and largely gets pushed around in that front. We give them, I think, the ability to manage kind of the lumpiness in their paychecks. And I think that’s really the criticality of how we partner with our customers on the consumer side. And I think that benefits the merchants because these customers would either delay a purchase or just abandon altogether to wait for their next paycheck. And I think this allows everybody to kind of meet them where they’re at.
PR: Right. So you said non-discretionary. Does that mean like groceries? What are Zip customers spending their money on?
JH: Yeah, so think day-to-day needs, right? So groceries is a really tremendously growing category for us. I like to think of it as like, how do you live, work and frankly blow off steam at times? So the blowing off steam is the lower percentage, which would be ticketing. You know, we have a partnership with Major League Baseball and I can maybe qualify back to my own kind of childhood you know, my parents were paycheck to paycheck and they saved a lot of money to take us to one Detroit Tigers game a year. And that was a big family outing. So that to me was technically discretionary, but because it was once a year, you know, it was a priority, right? For us to do that. I think that the non-discretionary side around living and working is think of like a flat tire, you know, so automotive is a good category for us. Grocery is a good category for us. It doesn’t mean somebody’s financing…and I think maybe jumping into where some of the misperceptions are, I’ve read a lot of articles that like people using BNPL for groceries is a really negative thing. Well, how many of us pull out our credit card and float the grocery bill for 30 days? That’s normal for us. That’s a form of credit. BNPL is being used much in the same fashion. And I think that’s where the confusion and misunderstanding comes in. And look, this is where I get maybe a little bit cranky. I think the financial system is largely very, very judgmental with only a fraction of the consumer’s information. And so we’re judging how they’re using credit products with no real visibility into the whole picture. And I think that creates frustration for the consumer. that’s what I’m excited about doing different here at Zip.
PR: So then are you, when someone comes on to a platform and they use Zip for the first time, are you doing a credit check or you just, or you give them a small, a small amount that they can spend? What do you do?
JH: Yeah, a little bit of both. So what we do is we do a softball so we don’t touch their credit in any way. We’re not going to damage their credit. We do a softball just to check in where they’re at, but largely we approve the bulk of the customers coming in and we approve them on a small limit. This is, think, what makes the BNPL industry a little bit different is we really focus on the ability to navigate, maybe referred to as like a low and grow. So if the consumer, we give them a small limit out of the gate, they use it well, they get a larger limit from us, they use it poorly, the limit erodes very, very quickly. And I think what is nice about this is there’s real incentive alignment. Like I don’t have any incentive to give somebody a limit they can’t afford because ultimately I’m going to charge it off and they’re going to lose access to credit. I’m going to lose, cause I’m going to charge off loans. Where we have incentive alignment is when somebody pays me back, they get access to more credit. But we’re not trying to overextend. We have reasonable fees that keep everybody clear on what’s being paid back. And ultimately, I want to find the sweet spot of affordability to make sure my customers win, which means Zip will win. We get paid back and I think they get the credit they deserve.
PR: So there’s been in the news this year, a bit of a stories from the credit bureaus trying to somehow bring in BNPL data and it’s not easy, but what’s your view on that? I mean, you came from a fintech lender that I’m sure reported to the credit bureaus and what do you feel like this is a product that should be reported and do you, and what are your thoughts about that?
JH: Yeah, I’ll anchor with a statement and then we’ll get into maybe some of my personal bias. I would say, look, the Bureau, if we can do something in a way that helps our consumers, I think that would be great. I think so reporting to the Bureau in a way that is beneficial to the consumer. Where I think I openly have questions is, is how can we do this in a way that is beneficial? So you think about, you know, I’ll go back to my happy money days. I’ll go back to my credit union days and auto loan on average durations 40 plus months, right? So how does a six week payback behavior really benefit your ability to underwrite an auto loan?
PR: Right.
JH: You know, like the duration risk is significantly different. The payback behavior is different. I’d also say like, look, my consumers pay me back every two weeks. Am I going to report late payments? How do I report late payments over the course of two weeks? So I think finding the right way to report data that is actually beneficial. I think this is one of those moments. Let’s go slow to go fast here because like it is beneficial, but I think the arguments that are largely being made are beneficial to the traditional financial institutions more than their that are benefiting the consumers. And I think that is where I just want to take a very pragmatic approach to how this plays out. Because largely, if you put yourself in the shoes of a paycheck to paycheck consumer, they’re going to be a little bit sloppy at times with a repayment because their money is chunky. And so do you really punish them for that? And I think that’s where I get into the incentive alignment. Like, Zip isn’t waiting to catch the consumer making a mistake. We’re willing to just let these things play out in a way that, you know, ultimately our consumers pay us back over 98% pay back the loan in full. Most of them pay us back on time. And those that don’t, we’re not looking to bury them when they run into an unexpected issue. Like when they eventually pay us back, we meet them where they’re at. And I just think like the traditional financial system, including FICO, is overly punitive in that regard. And I think the bi-weekly pay cycle, trying to match their payments to when they get paid is a real differentiator for how you interact with the consumer. And I feel like that’s a real struggle for you to kind of put into a bureau that really is largely built on 30-day late payments and other things that just doesn’t fit the mechanics of how a BNPL product is structured.
PR: I totally, totally get it. The reality is we should have a real-time credit bureau by now, but because we don’t, know some have tried to build things like this, have not been successful. It’s hard to change incumbent systems as we know, many banks are still working on COBOL code that was written in the eighties. But if we had a real time credit bureau that didn’t have to rely on 30-day payments, then it would make perfect sense. That should total every single BNPL transaction, I think, should be reported.
JH: Maybe, but let me maybe give you a hard time on that one. Okay. I’m interested in your purview, because I know you come out of lending world. I think about the Bureau as largely gamifying consumer debt. know, like you can’t get a score if you don’t take on debt and it’s largely a health indicator of how you manage debt. And so like, is that really a consumer’s like financial wellness score? To me it’s…propagated as one, but it really isn’t one. So to me, think even a real time is still missing so much information on a consumer’s ability to pay and not only ability to pay, but their attitude and kind of their aptitude and hunger to pay. And I think like that’s missing regardless. So I struggle with that still.
PR: Yeah, no, mean, ideally there would be a credit score and, you know, like cash flow underwriting provides both sides of the equation. So you could sort of have it have, if you could incorporate that into traditional credit score, I think you could have it, you get a much clearer picture. as I take your point, as it’s a gamified system right now, there’s all sorts of, and you can watch TikTok videos about how to gamify your score, your credit score right now. it’s…I that’s something I’m not very happy about, anyway, we don’t want to talk all about this. Let’s move on. Let’s talk about your US business right now. Seems like you’re growing pretty fast. Can you give us some of the growth numbers and what’s driving your growth right now?
JH: Yeah, so we are growing over 40 % year over year. Obviously we had a really strong holiday season. Like most BNPLs, you start to see some of the consumer behavior shift to this simplified structure. I think our value prop is resonating. We get a lot of consumers that tell their friends about the simplicity and ease of use. I think we continue to lean into our customers and how they use our product. So for example, our in-store experience is now over 20 % of our volume and has grown over 64 % year over year. And that could include the physical card or just the digital issuance that’s kind of built within the app. So I think the core of our growth story is we’re engaging our customers better than ever before. The product adoption is increasing, but also we continue to lean in and navigate like how the customer wants to use us, which I think is kind of great product 101 is stay close to the customer and meet them how they want to use your product.
PR: Right. And so I want to go back to the customer segment that you’re serving. I think, you know, the one of the things that the mass media has been critical about BNPL because they say it just helps people rack up debt. You know, there’s been studies from the Federal Reserve and others that show that, you know, a large percentage of BNPL users were behind on payments. So, when someone from the press reaches out to you and says, look, you’re just propagating consumer debt that people are already have too much debt. What’s your response to that?
JH: Yeah, look, I appreciate this question because I think it’s at the crux of how we operate our company. But I also think it’s it’s navigating how BNPL works. One is our consumers do pay us back over 98 percent pay us back. And, you know, most people do pay us back on time. I think the other thing to really consider on this is our average loan size is small. You know, our average limit is relatively small. If a consumer is not able to pay us back on time, they’re not able to borrow more funds from us. So, you know, unlike a credit card, you know, this doesn’t roll in perpetuity. The APR doesn’t continue to compound on the consumer. So to me, where I think consumers sometimes get themselves in trouble is they trust the financial institutions assessment of affordability and they spend to their limits. They get upside down and then it rolls and they pay minimum payments for you know, 70 years on something. But where our product, you know, we know in a couple of weeks, if the consumer is in good shape or not, and if they’re not in good shape, the line, their ability to borrow from us is frozen and we have a $7 late fee. So, you know, they’re not going to get buried in fees and APR revolving. So to me, this idea that we’re propagating debt, I think just the inherent structure of the product doesn’t really allow for that. And the cycle time on it spins so fast. As I mentioned before, it’s a six week product.
PR: Yeah, I always tell people, it’s a payment method, it’s not a credit product. mean, people use it to smooth out their payments and I think it doesn’t have many of the same characteristics as you say, as a 60-month auto loan would have and serving a different, oftentimes a very different population. But I want to talk about the income side of the equation for your customer base. You mentioned it, I you mentioned it, has choppy income sometimes. And how are you helping the customers that are, you they might have a full-time job that doesn’t pay very much and they’ll have a part-time job or they’ll have multiple part-time jobs and everything’s very choppy. What are you doing to help them on the income side of the equation?
JH: So my favorite thing is to spend time with our customers, you know, cause you just described them. They’re hustlers. Like they know where every dollar goes better than anybody with excess funds. Right. And so like they work their tails off to make sure that they have what they need to survive. And ultimately there’s times, and I think you put it really well, where they need some working capital that’s going to smooth out those, those bumps in the road. So to me, it’s like, look, I think the short duration, the small dollars allows you to take a chance on more people. And I think ultimately that is what really matters. We’re not, you our app doesn’t provide them access to side hustles or anything on the income side, but we do try to keep them in a position where they have access to that what I would consider a credit privilege, which is the 30 day float of my American Express or, you know, like these are all the different tools I’m able to access because of I’m not paycheck to paycheck. I grew up in a family that was and like you get a flat tire. You’re going through mental gymnastics of where to deploy your cash and where do you deploy credit? And and I think ultimately like trusting the consumer to make those optimum decisions. A BNPL product creates the simplicity for them to do that in real time and not get caught upside down on a revolving credit instrument.
PR: Right, right. Okay, so it was about a year ago that I read that you were partnering with Stripe, obviously the largest payments fintech there is. Curious, so it’s been about a year. How is that relationship going and what role do you see Stripe playing in your growth?
JH: Yeah, Stripe is a great partner. As you mentioned, they carry a lot of weight in the industry. They’ve been a great partner in infrastructure with like many other fintechs, but they’ve also been a great partner on their ability to distribute with merchant partnerships. So look, it’s a great one to many type of distribution for us. We are starting to see some traction is in those middle market and some other larger accounts. The beauty of the relationship we have is that it’s the flip of a switch for merchants to turn Zip on and really get the benefit. where the industry’s moved a little bit is, you know, there’s, used to be the kind of this one BNPL in my checkout was probably okay. I think what you’re seeing with most merchants now is it’s almost like a waterfall of payment methods. You know, my private label credit card is for my premium. It’s the best economics, obviously, for the merchant. You know, other forms of payment, you want to be accessible to everybody. But as you start to get down in the waterfall, know, a BNPL like Zip really adds a complement to those other payment methods and ensures that every customer has a payment option at that checkout. So we add that incrementality. As I mentioned earlier, roughly 18 % of our customers and some of our largest merchants have said they would have had to abandon their cart had Zip not been there because they didn’t have the money in their debit card at that time and they didn’t have access to a credit card. And they certainly weren’t getting approved for the private label card the merchant was offering. So that compliment is really where Stripe’s able to send us to some merchants and add that incrementality to their objective…which is move more merchandise.
PR: So did you have Stripe in place for the holiday season last year?
JH: We did not. So we’ve have this relationship with Stripe. We have a few merchants live, but they, like many, they want to make sure that everything is working really well. So their general availability will be something we have this year with merchants, which is going live as we speak. So that’s an exciting development for us for sure, to add a bunch more merchants.
PR: So I imagine you’re expecting an even stronger holiday season this year,
JH: As a publicly listed company, really do my best not to not to foreshadow in that direction, but we feel good about the position we’re sitting in and I think excited about the holiday season.
PR: Understood. Sorry for that question.
JH: No problem. I’m learning.
PR: Yes, indeed. then beyond traditional retail, what, what, I mean, it feels like BNPL is very well established now, but are there new verticals or use cases that you are, you’re expanding into that you’re excited about?
JH: So I’ll harken back to earlier commentary around just how much our paycheck to paycheck customer is looking for flexibility in their finances and simplicity. And when you look at the core of their finances, especially on the non-discretionary, I would say look towards monthly expenses. things like bill, utility bills that sometimes are a big lump sum at the first part of the month. Pay in four works okay for that, but it still stretches a monthly expense beyond the calendar month. We’re really excited. We built our platform out. We call it Pay in Z. And our ability there is to meet the expense, how the consumer wants to manage it. So Pay in 2 will be our next iteration on that front. And I would say bills are really what we’re targeting with that. Creating simplicity of smaller dollars. So think of a monthly bill that you just want to pay half upfront and half in two weeks. That’s really how we envision that coming to life. And we think we can add more flexibility to our consumers’ finances with that product.
PR: Right, right. Okay. So last question. I’d love to get your perspective on where you see the BNPL landscape going like in say five years time with the idea that this is a fintech innovation did not come from the banking system, but banks are starting to get involved. There are some that have their own native BNPL programs, sometimes partnering with the, with the fintech, but sometimes homegrown, and lots of banks now have it as part of their credit card. You can kind of do a pay over time for some of the charges on your credit card. So with that in mind, I would like to kind of get your perspective on what you think the BNPL landscape will look like in five years time.
JH: This is going to be a fun one. So I don’t know how we’ve made it this far, Peter, without saying the words AI somewhere.
PR: Good point.
JH: But when I think about five years from now, I do think of like this version of autonomous finance. And I do think like when you look at the credit privilege position, I think it’s just more, right? More options, more capability on a payment method. Where I see Zip in five years is really continuing to double down on this underestimated American that’s largely disenfranchised and irritated with the traditional financial system. And if we can bring some of that kind of premium capability to our customer base, I do think AI is going to allow you to do a lot at scale that was never capable before. And what I view kind of fintech going forward is really building out more of that personalization at scale that was largely just, I would say, a unicorn in the expense structure of capabilities set without AI. I think AI is going to allow us to really reinvent our customer interaction. But also, the way BNPL, think, will work is both embedded, but also post-transaction. How do you help the customer really optimize the payment structure based on their cash flow needs?
And this is, think, where pulls maybe some of my experience together is like, Happy Money was pure cashflow. Credit unions was focused on communities and really meeting the consumer where they’re at and looking at every individual beyond their FICO score. Where I see Zip going is leveraging all of that and meeting this paycheck to paycheck consumer with the capability set that like is largely exclusive to the financially privileged. And I think that’s…BNPL is just a simple, easy tool to be a part of that story.
PR: Okay, well we’ll have to leave it there, Joe. Really appreciate you coming on the show. Fascinating insights you had and best of luck to you.
JH: Thank you.
PR: See ya.
There’s no question that US consumers love BNPL. We see the total volume increasing every year as more merchants adopt this fintech innovation as a payment mechanism. I would argue that in many cases, consumers love their BNPL provider more than their bank. So this leaves companies like Zip in a unique position to introduce new financial products to complement their standard offerings. Joe mentioned leveraging AI for autonomous finance. While he didn’t share specifics here, I could see BNPL players providing useful tools to help their customers better manage their overall financial lives. Tools that actually get adopted. Exciting times.
Anyway, that’s it for today’s show. If you enjoy these episodes, please go ahead and subscribe, tell a friend or leave a review. And thanks so much for listening.